LADY IN WHITE is a Hauntingly Beautiful Halloween Horror Film

In Episode 30 of Secret Level, we dive into one of our favorite Halloween horror films Lady in White. The 1988 movie was directed by Frank LaLoggia, and it stars Lucas Haas. This is such a beautifully made horror film that not only offers thrills and chills but, it also tells a wonderful story with so many layers to it! We talk about the unconventional way that the movie was made, share our memories of watching it when we were kids and offer some fun trivia and behind-the-scenes details. We hope you enjoy the show!

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Transcript

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Just for reference, this is how the director pronounces his name. Hey everybody. This is Frank Loja. Um, Loja Lo Loja guy made this film. Loja, Lolo I would've never thought that No. Was lucky up now and said La la. Laia. Lalo Laia. Yeah. Did you get the new iPhone buddy? Uh, yeah I did actually. Me too. It's pretty, pretty. I like it. What color did you get? Just black. Me too. Yeah. I wasn't, I wasn't gonna wait weeks for a purple one or something like that. Yeah, just gimme a phone. Let me, That's what I told them. Let me do stuff on it. All right. But they tried to give me a gold one at first and I was like, Eh, yeah. They really tried hard to sell me on a gold iPhone. I'm like, I'm good. I don't wanna, I'm not that kind of guy. right? Walking. I was just like walking around with gold iPhones. No, thank you. Uh, man. Remember when you'd walk into my house and my dad would be practicing singing and he'd be going getting it? Yes. His voice warmed up. La la, la, la, la, la la, la la. I don't know why, but it felt like he was always practicing He was practicing all the time. Like, it just seemed like he was forever practicing. And for those of you, you don't know, my dad was a professional singer, and so it was just one of these things that I grew up with. It was fun though, Life, just listening to him practice every day, all the time day. It's probably why I wasn't home ever I mean, that's a good reason. I don't know. No. But yeah, I do remember that. And he'd either be practicing or singing and telling us to shut up. or sitting out in the van and reading. Sitting out in the van. Reading. Yes, yes, yes. those I'll, That was my favorite. Yep. He'd love to sit in the van and read. It was his quiet place. It was his office. Yep. Ah, man, it's so funny. Yeah, that was great. Good for him. Good times. Good days. Good days. Yes. All right. Yes. Here we go. You ready for this? Oh, man, I'm so excited. You don't even know. I, I was waiting for Halloween to record this. Yes, I've been waiting for the Halloween season to talk about this movie. It is one of my all time favorite horror movies. I love it so much. I grew up watching it, and it is just wonderful. So, without further ado, no ado. Hello. I am Joy Parr, the host of this podcast, secret level, and joining me is, Billy the one and only. Sure. The one and only. Yay. Yay. The one and only Billy Fisher. Yes. Not to the 1970s uh, film starring Steve Gutenberg. Billy Fisher But the actual real life one, you just pulled that outta your butt. Sure did. Cuz when you Google me, that's what you get. Everybody Google Billy Fisher right now and see what you find. Yes. Okay. Yes. In this episode of Secret Level, we are going to discuss the classic 1988 horror film, The Lady in White. What? And you know what, it took me watching this again as an adult to realize it's not just a horror film. It's not, it's not just a horror. It's not, This movie has so many layers to it. It is a horror drama. It is a horror drama thriller. It is a horror drama, murder, mystery, thriller, And that's what gets me, dude, is that as a kid, I, I think there's these wonderful filters in your mind as a kid that you, certain storylines happen, but you don't really get the depth of them. Yes. So once those filters are taking away and you watch it again, you're like, Holy crap dude. Layers. That's crazy. Layers. Yes. And how many and how good of a performance, not just Lucas Hawes gives in it, but also, uh, Alex Rocko, the guy who plays his dad. Yeah. And the one and only Jason Presen. From Explorers, Jason Presen. Yeah. Playing Geno. It was great to see him in this movie. I forgot he was in it until I started watching it again. Yeah, and you know what stinks is that he's so fantastic of an, like, his, his acting level is above everybody else's, and then he just drops off the map after this movie. I know. It's crazy. It's done. It's crazy. Yeah. Okay, well, we got a lot to talk about, but first let's start off with, uh, wait, wait. I just wanna say, Oh, I just wanna make sure everybody knows this movie was directed by Frank Loja and he did such a wonderful job. Like it is such a wonderful. Film that this guy created for entertainment purposes and, you know, to scare us a little bit, to teach us a few things. Right. All around great film, but yes. Okay. Onto Pleasant Trees. Uh, since it is, you know, the Halloween season, I thought Halloween season. Do you have a song for us, Billy? No, I was, I'm, I turned Christmas songs into Halloween songs, man. I was really hoping you'd have a Halloween song for us. Yeah, me too. I really wish there you know, So since it is the Halloween season though, Billy and I had the opportunity to go to Halloween Horror Nights. We did Universal Studios Hollywood. And so I just, you know, that was a fun thing we did and I just wanted to give a shout out to Halloween Horror Nights. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was great, dude. I, And something that Joey and I notice every year is that the big name, Mazes that we go through are Okay. Yeah. But the no name mazes, the no name mazes, the ones that are original. Oh man, those things are fantastic. They're great. Oh, we walk out, see most people scream during these mazes. Joey and I walk out laughing cause they're just so much fun. Sorry, go ahead. Say that again. Yeah, I, I was pausing for you. Okay. So, so most people walk through these things and they scream all the way through, but Joey and I walk through and we laugh and we like critique as we go through. We're like, That was a good scare. Yeah. That was good. So, but it was just like, oh yeah, he got me on that one. Yeah. That guy behind that corner popping out at me like that, with that giant ax. That was great. I think our favorites were Lorna. Yeah, that was good. That was a good one. And the Scarecrow maze. Yeah. They also did, uh, kind of an original story based on the universal monsters, uh, Dracula, Wolfman and the Mummy. That was really fun. That was fun. I did like that. Uh oh, Frankenstein was there too. Can't forget Frankenstein. Absolutely not. Uh, yeah, that was great. And I love going to these things during Halloween, like going to haunted houses and. you know, these haunted mazes, haunted corn fields, haunted potato fields. Haunted. Ooh. Strawberry fields. Strawberry fields, whatever, whatever. Uh, I like, I like Halloween guys. It's like one of my favorite times of the year and I, I watch one horror movie a day throughout the month of October. Uh, just because it's fun to do. I'll usually try and find. Something that I've never seen before and watch it. And then near Halloween, I start pulling out the classics that I love to watch every year. Uh, Lady and White is one of them, but since we're doing the podcast now, I pulled that one out a little early so I can watch it. And I watched this movie like three times before this podcast. Yeah, me too. It is just so good. I it's great. If you have not seen The Lady in White, it is, uh, movie that you have to see the, the plot or the story it said in 1962. It's set in upstate New York and it follows a boy who kind of becomes embroiled in the mystery surrounding a series of child murders after he witnesses the ghost of a young girl who was murdered in his school's coat closet. Okay. Now, before I go any further, I'm going to read the synopsis to this to give you an idea of what's going on here. So here we go. Locked in the cloak room after school as a Halloween prank. Frankie meets the ghost of a young neighborhood girl, Melissa Ann Montgomery, who had been found strangled to death 10 years before. Frankie soon learns. The nine other children have been killed in the years since. And with the special help of Melissa and her mother, a grieving apparition known as the Lady in White, he attempts to discover the murderer before he becomes his latest victim. Dude, that's fantastic. Yes. It it, I love that it sums it up and doesn't give you everything. Yeah. Cuz it gives you the basic concept of the story doesn't give you too much. Cuz there's a lot in this movie. There's a lot like I've been saying over and over again. Layers. Layers. So many layers, so many And, but I mean, and it's true. And the thing that I like about it is that it, it's one of those movies that you could see that started a genre without knowing that it was starting a genre. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, I mean, we're gonna get into it. We don't wanna give everything away, but I, it's just Lucas Hoes after this movie, I wanted Lucas Hoes to just kill Hollywood You know what I mean? The kid is fantastic. Yeah. So, such a great child actor. And one of the things about this movie, it's one of the, it's a movie that captured my imagination when I was a kid. Like, it was like one of the first horror movies I saw that I was able to put myself in that situation. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Like, I think in mo a lot of horror movies when I was growing up didn't deal with kids in this kind of setting or, this crazy experience. Right. Right. And so it was really cool to see a movie like that and it's just, I instantly connected with it when I was a kid and it's something that has stuck with me all these years. There are moments in this thing that just are embedded in my brain and my memory. Like that coke closet that I talked about earlier. Mm-hmm. that coke closet was terrifying. Fine. Yeah. Well, here's the thing too, is that what got me as a kid is that when you're a kid, you think you are invincible. Yes. Like nothing's gonna get you. And then within the first 15 minutes of it, All safety is gone. Oh yeah. Forget about it. Just, man, what happens in that clo that cloak closet coat closet freaked me the hell out as a kid, I was like, Oh, shoot. Because it was the last thing you expected to see happen to this Right. Poor kid, like, uh, all we're gonna get. Okay, we'll, we'll, we'll get into that. But first of all, the movie was actually inspired by local lore in that area. Like, okay, there's a local legend, about the lady in white. and it concerned a woman who searches for her daughter, in Duran Eastman Park in Rochester, New York from where the director was from. Legend, has it. That the white lady had a daughter who disappeared at the hands of her predatory young suitor. And so the white lady roams the lake front to this very day searching for her missing daughter or freaky, right? Yeah. man, And the, the residents of the lady in white is actually the base of a demolished hotel that was built in the 18 hundreds known as the White Ladies castle. And it has become a popular tourist attraction and party site for teenagers, obviously. Yeah. Because teenagers have to party in the scariest places you can think of. Yep. It's just a thing. when talking about this legend, the director said, When I think about lady and white, I think about it as a combination of two things. My fondest memories as a child. Mm-hmm. and my most frightening nightmares. Whenever I began work on a new story, which I eventually take screenplay, images start to compel me more than anything else. One of the pictures that the director had in his head was the cloak room in which the kid played by Lucas Haass is locked in early in the film. The fact that it was behind the school room's chalkboard, as well as its odd shape and strangely fashion curved window made the cubby hole exactly like the old one. The director dread it entering. When he was a fourth grader and he said it was one of the most frightening places I had ever seen at the beginning of the day. You would have to crowd into it and hang your coats on these big hooks and of course take them off the hooks at the end of the day. Luckily we did that as a communal effort. Going in alone would definitely not have been much fun for me. I don't think it would've been much fun for anybody. Mm-hmm. Absolutely not. But like he's got a point cuz if something happened back there, you're behind the chalkboard. No one can see what you're doing. Exactly. And that cloak room, it's, it's one of those things that I, it's given me nightmares like over the years. This is something that is con, consistently coming up in my dreams, this cloak room from this movie. It really is like messed with my head in, in certain ways cuz it's just stuck there. Well, it's the image of it like, They turn an innocent looking room into just essentially a room of death. Yeah, it's exactly. And it's so crazy. Like that whole scene where Frankie is in that room after the bullies trick it after his friends, friends slash bullies trick him and lock him in the room. He's cowers up near the window. And this is like, this is the poster, right? This is the poster of the movie where he is got the Bella Lagosi Dracula mask on Dude. Which I wanna talk about because that is one of the coolest masks I've ever seen. Like, it's so dead on. I know, to Bella Lagosi, it's, it was that, that even made it scarier for me. Like, dude, all those masks back in the day, dude, back in the sixties and even prior to the sixties, like, those masks are scary, dude. Like, I don't know what they were doing back then with those paper mache masks, but, but man, we gotta bring that back. We gotta bring the creepy ass Halloween masks back because I love, dude, those were on point. Yeah. That mask is so cool though. I agree. And speaking, you know, when we talk about Jason Preston and about how he kind of fell off the map. Yeah. We, we forget a lot about his bully. The guy who plays Donald Jared Rushton. Yeah. Who's also in Big and Overboard. He, Yeah. He just kind of disappeared. Yeah. Yeah, he did. He was, he was so good in this movie. He doesn't have much screen time, but the screen time it does. It. His energy is always outta 10. It was. He was perfect for that. For that role. Yeah. But just that whole scene in that cloak room where he's sitting there hiding and he sees this thing play out, this whole ghostly thing just unfold before his eyes. Right. He's already scared enough. And then the actual killer comes in, right? And it's like it's just never ending for this poor kid. He's trapped in this situation, He's seeing ghosts, that he's obviously freaked the F out, and then all of a sudden the killer comes into the. You just don't see stuff like that anymore. Right. And and it's not just the killer comes in, the killer comes in and then Frankie get, gets attacked just like the ghost he just saw. Yeah. Which is just so crazy because it's like this kid's, what, 10 years old? Yeah. And this, this guy just comes up to him and starts choking him out. Like, holy crap, man. Like that's just insanity. And I remember as a kid just being like, What the hell is going? Who would kill a kid? That's the thing. All safety is gone, dude. Cause as a kid you're like, you're like, ah, no one's gonna do that. But that guy sure did. He walked in and was like, You're done kid. But yeah. Um, and that's where it starts getting political and a little sideways. I was like, Oh man. Yeah. And there's stuff that I didn't really catch on until I was an adult. About this movie and about the story. Um, we'll get into that later. But it's, it's so cool what this movie did and kind of what it brought to the story that, that just strengthened it even more. Right. Uh, okay. So you gotta get a little backstory on Frankie and his brother Gino and their dad, they had just suffered at a loss themselves. The matriarch of the family had just recently passed away. Yes. And so what I loved about this is it was there was no hate or anger in the family. Yeah. The, their lo the level, the level of love for each other was up a little bit higher because they're like, Now we know we could lose somebody that's close to us. So they made sure everyone was taken care of, even when Gino picks on him. Yeah, he makes sure he is okay. Afterwards. He was like, when talking about the family in mm-hmm. the movie, uh, the director said that Frankie's dad was based on my dad. Frankie, was a combination of myself and my little brother. Gino and Mama and Papa were my, Cillian grandparents on my father's side of my family, as to mama and Papa. Everything that happens in the film between them was based on my remembrance of them They were a constant and vivid part of my younger years. When my grandfather died, my grandmother moved in with us around the time I was ready to go to college. That's so funny cuz they're like the shining light of the movie. They're the comic relief of the movie. They, Oh my gosh. Whenever they come up, you can get this levity o you know. Yeah, it's great. Oh, fantastic. I'm glad they were based on real people. Cuz man, I was like, I wanna meet these people they're so good. When talking about making the movie Uhhuh, he said, I initially said, Yes, I have to make this movie. When I started thinking about creating something that had to do with my past, something that I had experienced in my family, I wanted to create something that was a homage to my family because I missed certain members that were gone. And so that's what really started at gelling. The thing I can remember that most compelled me forward as to the specific idea was the cloak room. It all started with an image in my head that had to do with being in the cloak room and Frankie being locked in the cloak room. I knew that I needed to create a structure that would allow me to embellish those memories that I held so deeply that would work. From a storytelling point of view, the movie is really about loss. That's what drives it. I can't say that I knew that when I was writing it, but I think that's what makes it so compelling to so many people. Loja actually gave an interview where he was asked if he was ever locked in a cloak room when he was a kid. And he says, Well, if I was, I weathered it fairly well. No, I wasn't locked in a cloak room, but I had a fear of that place. It's coffin like surroundings, the familial elements of the film had to do with my own personal experience. The ghostly elements had very little to do with my own experience. But what he did write, what he, he wrote for the family, it came from a personal space and it worked really well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. He went on to talk about the atmosphere of the film and explains why the movie has such a lasting legacy, uh, why it has such stain power and he. Well, to tell you the truth, I'm amazed at all the attention the film is getting with the release of the new Blueray. I always believe that the film had a loving audience. Over the years, people had gotten in touch with me to let me know how much they love the film. It's always been obviously a very touching and wonderful thing to hear from people who care about Lady. But I've never experienced anything like this. Not even in the picture's initial release. The picture was not a big success theatrically, and that happened for a number of reasons, primarily because the distributors simply once again, did not fulfill its obligations to the film as to spending advertising wise. It wasn't because they didn't believe in the film, it was simply because they were at the end of their reign. They were running out of money as a company, and about a year and a half after they released Lady, they shut down. Well, that's too bad he goes on to say, I'd have to say once again, based on the reaction of the film is getting now and has in the past, that it's universal in its themes. There's something in the film that everyone can relate to. There's nothing about the film that categorizes it or makes it solely a film for a particular core group. For example, I've never considered Lady to be a and a quote horror film. I've never believed the film to be anything as categorizing it. I never thought of the film as anything other than a story I wanted to tell, period. Within the context of the story, there were a lot of elements that drove it forward, that were thrilling, that were mysterious, that were exciting, and that's what good storytelling is about. It really is, dude. I mean, yes, it's set during Halloween time, right? That's where it starts. Yeah. And I keep calling it, and it's got the, and I keep calling it a horror film, and for me, I know he is not categorizing it, but for me it, because it scared me as a kid so much. I, I can't help but, but categorize it as a horror film. So that's why, you know, I ex, I, I respect him, I know what he's saying, but in my mind, the movie is a horror film, drama, murder, mystery, Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, as, as far as like murder mysteries go, man, it's like, it's like the geno and Frankie show, man. Those guys are, they're both like, they have an end goal to go and they go separate ways about it, but meet up again at the end. Yeah, exactly. It's so cool. Yep. But it's it, and this is the thing, it didn't feel forced. It was natural. Just they both just stumbled upon clues and they were just, they came together and everyone were like, Oh, crap. Yeah. And I loved that they were so, like, I mean, even though they joked around with each other and stuff like that, they, they, you could tell that they loved each other. They didn't hate each other. There was a mutual respect and a love there. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I love that because in a lot of films you see these days, it's like, it's like either like very overly like, I hate you or, you know, especially on those CW shows, or it's overly mushy. But this had a great combination of both. Like it was real, The relationships felt real. That's what, that's what got me it. And that's the way I would describe it. It's not a horror film, it's just a, like a slice of life film. Yeah. With a supernatural undertone. And I love that. Back in the sixties, back in the day, you could buy baby alligators at your local store. Right? Right. Um, it made me wonder, what did that alligator go on to do? I don't know. Cause the thing got away. I want an alligator though. Yeah. Let's go get one. So now I need to go find an alligator store. Yes. And not only, not like when I say stores, like it's not even a pet store. It's like the local corner market. Yeah. It's like a Walgreens. Yeah. That has alligators. Yes. Just, just something that I pointed out that, And uh, one of the other things that I noticed that I thought was funny were how they were in school with their jackal lanterns. Mm-hmm. And they all had real fire candles in the jackal lanterns in school. Is there any other way? Well, there's no other way in the sixties. Yeah. But there's no way, no one's gonna be lighting any candles in a. Classroom these days? Not anymore. No. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. No way. We need to bring real fire back. Mm. Yeah. That could be dangerous. Yep. I love it. Oh man. Oh, the other thing that I noticed, the school that Frankie was in. Mm-hmm. was next to a graveyard. It sure was. Sure was. Buddy. I sure wish I would've went to a school that was next to a graveyard. We did go to a high school with a graveyard down the street. But you had the walk. You had the walk. Yeah. You had to walk a while. A while. But had to have one that cemetery made, made some news. Well, say that again. I said that cemetery made some news. Yes, it did. Yes it did. Well, we can talk about that later, but yes, it sure did. All right. So I know some these things that kind of like pop in my head, so I'm gonna like spurt out like fun memories I had while watching the movie. So absolutely. Bear with me. Bear with me. This movie has an interesting story about how it was made, like the financing. Okay. The film was entirely financed, 4.7 million through a penny stock offering. Really? This was during the time where it's like, what was that Martin Scorsese movie? Wolf of Wall Street. Wolf of Wall Street. So this around the same time where that was going on, where penny stocks were, like hitting big and all that stuff. So New Sky Communications was a public company set up by Frank and his cousin. I. They traded initially on Nasdaq for 10 cents a share. It was the first and only occasion that a single feature film was financed in this manner. Crazy. Isn't that nuts? Yeah, that's insane. Like, they've funded the movie through penny stocks That's so funny. I, they, they had to really think about this to be able to do it. You know what I mean? Yeah. I, I wouldn't even know the first thing about going through penny stocks to fund a film, but Frank said, Charlie came to me and said, Look, we may be able to do this again. Raise money independently if we go public. He said there was a possibility we could structure a penny stock offering to raise the money to make another film. It took us quite a while to structure the public entity called New Sky Communications. We had a number of brokers around the country selling stock for Lady and White, and it took us about three years from beginning to end to bring lady and white to fruition while, Yeah, it's so crazy. That's nuts. While Charles led the fundraising effort on the East Coast, Frank did the same thing in Los Angeles and he went and secured commitments from the cast of the film. one of the people of the cast was his friend Catherine Hellman, and she went on to pitch a little money of her own to the fundraising to help the movie get made. And across all of their fundraising efforts, Frank and Charles raised the 4.7 million and they endeavor to use the money wisely. And in doing that to make sure that every cent was put into the film and that they were gonna make. Everything was perfect in making this film that it wasn't gonna be a disaster while shooting it. They meticulously storyboarded every single scene prior to the 15 week production, and that really helped in getting the film made smoothly. Cuz you have all the visuals already done. All you need to do at that point is get the crew together, set up the camera, and start shooting those storyboard shots. Right? I mean, that's the best way to do it cuz then at least everything's down. Everybody knows where they're going. It's a smart way, It's a smart way to make movies these days. It's like now they're going and making movies with no scripts. Right? so, Which is interesting. Yeah. Frank and Charles managed to recoup every penny of their costs before the film even hit theaters. They sold the foreign rights to Samuel Goldman Productions for a$1 million advance and 70% of all foreign sales bringing their foreign earnings to over 2.7 million home video rights went to Richard Branson, Virgin Vision for 2 million and New Century Vista picked up US theatrical rights while guaranteeing a 1 million spend to open the picture. So before the movie even hit theaters, they made their money back. That's great business. Great business. And then on top of that, it went on. To, uh, to make more money. Right. I mean, it wasn't like a runaway hit, but the movie did make a solid profit over the years. Right. And then with it's, I guess you can call it a cult following. Yep. I'm sure that helped out a lot. Also, when talking about the financing of the film and how all that played out, the director said, as far as I know, nobody else had ever done it. This time I made sure that no distribution deals were going to be made until the picture was completed and that I would supervise all those deals. Charlie was agreeable to that because he had to be, otherwise I wasn't going to move forward. We managed to do it. Could it be done today? I suppose so, but it would depend on whether or not someone could find a network of brokers that would be willing to sell the offering. He wanna say, By the way, I'd like to correct a misconception and this is about, uh, the success of the film Lady in White is mistakenly thought to not have been a success. Financially. That is not true. It did not do well theatrically in the us. That's. I structured three independent deals for Lady once the picture was completed. The US theatrical deal, the foreign deal, and the video deal. By virtue of structuring those deals separately, the movie recouped every penny of its negative cost before it even went into theaters in the us. The way that happened is that Samuel Goldwin company picked up the picture for foreign sales and they gave us a$1 million advance against sales. The film went through the roof foreign, and we collected 70% of all sales. Goldwin took it to cans and sold it all over the world via foreign alone. We pocketed close to 3 million. Then Virgin Vision, which was the entertainment arm at the time of Richard Branson's company, Virgin International, advanced US$2 million against video.,So? He went on to talk about Virgin Vision and, and the deal he made with them. But in the end, uh, he said, so it is not correct that the movie didn't recoup its cost. It did better than recoup its cost. We made quite a significant amount of money on Lady and White, so boom, boom, money maker. And I'm glad the movie was a success, at least for the director. It's not like a Marvel movie that's gonna make a billion dollars at the box office. Right, Right. It's, it's a small independent film that these guys went out and put together, but they made it work. They got their money back and everyone was happy in the end with the end result. Yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad it ended up making that much money, man. Cuz it was well worth it. So you know how I was talking about the, um, the, uh, storyboards earlier? Yes. So the storyboards. Were done by, Frank Lolo and Russ Carpenter, who was the director of photography. And they sat down together and they storyboarded every single shot of the film. That's 1,500 drawings. Dang it. He says, We spent an extensive amount of time discussing the look of the film, how we were going to approach it. All that had to do with creating an entertainment, a story that was compelling, exciting, and moving. And I just wanna say like the, uh, the atmosphere of this movie mm-hmm. was heavy Right. Dark heavy, but also like interesting and fascinating. Like it just, Draws you in. Yeah. And it's a weird, like the whole town felt like that secret, the children being murdered was hanging over its head. The way it was shot, the way the whole town looked. It was just like, something dreadful is going on here, or we just can't explain it. I loved the town that the, that the film was set in. When I was a kid, I was like, Man, I wish I could grow up in a town like that, right? I grew up in like a big city. And so, seeing something like that was really cool to me, it was like a fantasy world, you know what I mean? But it, it just felt heavy. Like they all knew something bad was happening. Well, there was, Kids were being brutally murdered. Yep. There was this heavy, dark atmosphere. And on top of that, I mean, there's that whole side story involving the janitor, whose name was Harold, right? Yeah. Yes. Har, What was his last name? Williams. Okay. Harold Williams. And when I, It's such a tragic, sad story, and when I watched it as a kid, I didn't quite understand what was going on. I didn't quite understand the ramifications of what was happening. So when Frankie is locked in the cloak room and he's. Someone tries to murder him. This dark figure, this shadowy figure comes and puts his hands around his neck and, and tries to strangle him to death. The town is in this uproar and they're looking for the kill, like who is the person that is going around killing kids? And it settles on the janitor of the school who is black. And it's like, that time, this is interesting because we don't really get political on this podcast. Uh, so this is kind of interesting because there is definitely a political theme in regards to racism and stuff like that in this movie that it touches on heavily, uh, because they automatically blame Herald. and no one is listening to what is said. It's auto, it's all of a sudden a witch hunt. He did it and that's all there is to it, you know? And it's the, the town folks or the judge, jury and executioner executioners essentially. Yeah. Eventually down the line. Which, which is what happens. And I remember because he is wrongly accused and he gets off, right? They, they, they find that there's no evidence against him and so they set him free and he's happy to be reunited with his wife. Uh, everything is looking up for him. There's this positive vibe in the air. And, and I remember as a kid watching this and being like, Oh man, thank goodness cuz like, we know he didn't do it. Right. Right from the very beginning, from the get, you know it. Oh, thank, Oh goodness, they're letting him off. Cuz what a horrible, horrible thing to accuse this man of doing something he didn't do. That just seems like a horrible, terrible nightmare. Right. There's there's a horror aspect just in regards to that, you know? Right. Being accused of something you didn't do and then when everything seems like it is going to be fine, he is murdered by one of the victim's parents. Yeah. And shot, just shot through the window of the cop car and his wife is hit with the bullet on the other side and you're j and you're just like, What? And I remember, like, I balled as a kid, I started crying like it was, this was an emotionally heavy scene because. This guy just wasn't fair. Such a nice guy. And it was not fair to what happened. And it's just, it's, this is what we're talking about when there's layers to this film, because you've got the whole, you've got this horror ghost story, this murder mystery, and uh, this town coming together to, blame someone for what is happening with the murder of these kids. And they don't know who to blame. And so they blame Harold, who is innocent mm-hmm. And then they let him out. They prove that he's innocent and then he gets killed. And it just was devastating. It's awful. Completely devastating. You see his wife and his children going through, you know, being the, just as guilty as him in the town's eyes that they have to go through this. Everybody thinks their husband or dad is the murderer. Yeah. And then I think the victim's wife just couldn't accept any other answers that this was it. They, she had made up her mind that this was the killer and that's what was gonna happen. Yeah. That was rough. It was rough. Yeah. And so on top of being like, my emotions on this movie, it's like a roller coaster. Yeah. Because you've got the fear thing going. You've got the intense stuff happening with this kid, with Frankie and his family, his brother, the, the mom of the lady in white. Ugh. Yeah. It's, it's bonkers. And, and then Harold's story, which just took the whole thing to a whole, like, super sad level. Right. And it was so weird, even in the eighties, like, it's just weird when you have kids saying the N word in a movie. Yeah. It was super awkward. I mean, yes. It, it should just never be said by anybody. So that, that did throw me off. It's like when you're watching movies from the eighties and they use a term that today is not used anymore, and that is a term that should never be used. And, and I, and I bring that up because if you do watch the movie, you haven't seen it. I don't want it to like throw you off. Right. Yeah. It's gonna throw you off, but it will throw you off a hundred percent. But yeah, just, you know, it, it just, it's set in the sixties and they wanted us just be, I guess, true to how society was right back then. So there's no way you would get away with that now. No. So we're not saying let it slide, we're just want you to be prepared that it is in there. Yeah. Yep. And it's said by kids, which is just weird. Yeah. Anyway. All right, let's move on. And so, That's when we talk about this is just a slice of life movie. It just really takes this town and exposes it to everyth, it exposes us to everything that's happening there. Yeah. And how it's all connected. And the sad thing is one of the, one of the people that was willing to accept that it could have, that Harold could be innocent, ends up being the one that's, um, been doing it the whole time. Oh, I know, dude. The reveal when they are out hunting and you, you at that point, you know, right when he takes Frankie out hunting, you know, you've put the pieces together by then. but when Frankie figures it out for the first time when he is out there, holy crap, dude. The look on his face. I mean, it's, it's devastation, right? And, and you can see there's something super weird and awkward. When they're doing the bow and arrow thing. Right. Right. And you're like, this doesn't feel right at all. This feels super off. Yeah. And as that's happening, Geno's figuring out who the killer is and trying to assemble the posse to go say Frankie cuz he knows something bad's going down. Yeah. And it's such, it's so intense because, you know, the inten, I mean the whole, this whole scene is just building and building the intensity. Like your feelings are like, you're on the edge of your seat and you're like, what is Frankie gonna do? What is going to happen right now? Right. Oh my gosh, it's so good. Such a good buildup and such a good ending Like it was a fantastic movie. And then like, and then when he does figure it out, when it just all clicks in Frankie's head and Phil, you know who is a family friend, by the way? Yeah. His dad's best friend from high school. Yep. Ugh. He goes mad, right? Yep. And when he like ducks down and disappears like, like, you know, crouched on the car so Frankie can't see him. Yeah. What a bullshit move, dude. right? It's the worst game of hide and seek ever. Oh my gosh. And Frankie's just like rolling up the windows, locking the doors. Like, I don't wanna die today. Right. And but when he comes up and that look on his face when he pops up, he's completely changed as a person. Oh yeah. He's like, I'm out for me and mine. I'm going to protect myself because you're, But then at this point, it's too late. No matter what happens, if you were to kill Frankie, then you're, you're gonna get caught. Right. Everyone knows it's you because everyone knew you with Frankie. Right. Ugh, gosh, uh, horrible. Yeah. So, but then you have that, also that whole other story between Phil and Frankie's dad, and he's like, I don't, can't face your dad with everything that I've done. Oh my gosh. And then the whole end. Huh. With the dad and Phil having to kinda like come to terms with what, what needs to be done. Right. Right. I won't spoil anything, even though I probably spoiled a lot already, but whatever. Uh, if you're listening to this podcast, chances are you've seen the movie and if you haven't seen the movie, Well, I'm sorry. Go watch it. Anyway, it's a very entertaining ride. It is. It is an emotional rollercoaster of awesomeness. And it's funny because here, look at all this stuff we're talking about, right? Yep. Everything we're talking about, we haven't even, and this is what's great about the movie, is we're discussing so many different elements of the story, and the one we aren't even touching on is the actual lady in white herself. Right. She's almost like a background thought in the film. Yeah, it's the legend living in the background, but there are real things happening in this world for real. Right, Right. But then the lady in white is real and the daughter is a real ghost like this. These things are all happening. It is insane. It layers Billy layers. Layers There's, And that's the one thing I really want to talk about that, but that's the aspect that I wanna keep hidden for. If you haven't seen the movie that, let's talk about it. Okay. So here's the thing. I think the reason Frankie is so into it is the ghost of, the little girl. Melissa Montgomery keeps saying she's trying to find her mom. She's trying to find her mom. Yes. And the one thing Frankie wants. is to be with his mom again. So that's, I think that's what pushes him forward to not be scared and to get Geno on board to not be scared of this ghost. Cuz we gotta find her mom. Yes. Who's the lady in white? Yes. And so he, that's why they both, they're like, Yeah, nobody deserves to be without their mom cuz they just lost theirs. Yep. And that's all they would want. So when they find out that the crazy lady of the town is the sister of the lady in white and she's on the same mission to get them back together again, I was just like, the way he drew it out was fantastic. Yes. It was so good and so beautifully done. Such a beautiful, so good, such beautiful storytelling. And Catherine Hellman doesn't get enough credit for you though. Who? For those of you who don't know, Catherine Hellman plays Mona on, um, Who's the boss? The mom. Super recognizable. Plays a very small role in this. Yep. But a very impactful role in the, in this movie. And I just love that they're all on the same mission. This is all about reuniting Melissa with her mom, who's also a ghost. But you gotta watch it to see how that happened, Yeah. But I also kind of like, just the interactions with Frankie when Frankie ends up meeting the quote lady and white for the first time. Right. I mean, it's a very creepy ass experience. Yes. I mean, it's super like she comes floating down the stairs. Oh my gosh. The classic psycho shot. Yep. And that, that's another visual that has stuck with me in my life. Yes. Is her floating down those stairs, the arms, outreach arms out. You're just like, Oh my gosh, what is happening right now? This is, this is gnarly Oh, absolutely. It was, Oh, I think that when I think of the lady in White, that's the image I think of. Yes. Like, that's the first thing I think of. Yep. 100% love. 100%. Uh, actually, funny story about, Karen Powell, who played the Lady in White. Mm-hmm. uh, in an interview, the director said, I can tell you a story, something that happened to Karen Powell who portrayed the ghostly lady in White in the film. One day when the film was airing repeatedly on cable, she was sitting on the train in Manhattan on her way to work. Sitting next to her were two teenage girls. One of them was excitedly going on and on about this movie called Lady and White that she'd seen on TV the night before. She's detailing the plot, breathlessly telling her friend about it, how wonderful it is, how she must see it. Karen's sitting next to her. She's listening to all this, just waiting to spring At a superbly time moment, Karen taps the girl on the shoulder and says, Excuse me, the girl turns around and Karen continue. I am the lady in white. According to Karen, this poor kid jumped out of her seat absolutely terrified while screaming. Oh my God. You are. She is the lady in white Oh man. That's fantastic. Yeah. Great, great story. What a fun. What fun That must have been, right? I mean, that's how I watched it the most. I recorded it when it was on cable. I had a VHS of it. Yeah, that's, I think I first saw on a VHS that I rented at my local VI store when I was like in junior high or something like that. Yeah. That was my first experience with a film. I'm surprised this movie doesn't get more like re-release theatrical screenings, Right? It should. It should. Did you know that the movie was originally rated R? No. Really? Yeah, the filmmakers appealed to get the PG 13 ready, but it was originally right at r and I can see why, like, there are heavy themes in this movie. Not only are you dealing with a horror, creepy ghost story, but you're also dealing with children being murdered. Mm-hmm. you know, a lot of racist undertones, a lot of racist undertones, and yeah, of course it's of course that's gonna be the first one. I'm actually surprised that they managed to land the PG 13 rating. Right. With the appeal. Yeah. But I'm glad it did because, um, I, I think it could reach a wider audience as a PG 13 as opposed to the R rating. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. So what do you think about the song? So the song. We all know if you've seen the movie, we all know the song. It is titled, Did You Ever See a Dream Walking? Mm. Creepy. And it's a, and it's not supposed to be creepy. It is a significant plot element in the movie. Yes. Yeah. If I ever, I, I've never heard it outside of the movie, but in the movie it just gives me the chills. It does. And I love it for that though. Yeah. Yeah. When, uh, when talking about how that song came about, Frank said how that song came about, Was serendipitous. I was working out the story for Lady and White and was at the very beginning of structuring it, putting it together, writing it out in pros prior to going to script and mulling, and mulling it about, I was living in LA at the time, and in Eddie Canter picture was going to be on television. I'd never seen an Eddie Cantor picture before, so I thought I'd take a break and watch it. The song was featured in the film, a silly, funny musical number. When I heard it, it was like an epiphany. Suddenly it just hit me that this was going to tie everything together. Conceptually. That's how did you ever see a dream? Walking came to be such an integral part of the storytelling, as the big Lebowski would say. It's the rug that ties the room together, man. Right. It's so is it tied the room together, but it tied the film together for sure, and that was the best part about it, is that when you hear it being played, it's a happy song, but when you hear it being sung or whistled by somebody else, it has such a crazy creepy tone to it. Yes. Such a great movie. I just got a real quick. Uh, couple little things I wanna point out. There's a scene in the movie where, CPR is used mm-hmm. and uh, that was not commonly used in the sixties. CPR was not something that people did it, it was only used by medical officials during that time. And it wasn't until the 1970s that they started teaching the public how to, how to do cpr. And the funny thing about that is it wasn't the cops doing it, it was Frankie's dad. Exactly. Exactly. That's kind of, I thought that was interesting. I thought that was kind of a interesting little tidbit of information. So when the film was first released, I thought it'd be fun to read, some of the reviews by, uh, critics at the time. Okay. Roger Ebert, legendary. Roger Ebert said Lady and White, like most good films depends more on style and tone than it does on story. And after a while, it's the whole insidious atmosphere of the film that begins to envelop us. We have been this way before in countless other movies, but not often with so much style. Atmosphere and believable human nature. That's sweet. Yep. New York Times said, Here are the bones of an ordinary ghost story, but the writer and director, Frank Sia brings them to life with exceptional vitality. The extended scar Latty family, warm, funny. So real. They make the characters and moonstruck seem like imposters. but the director creates an unusual, effective child's eye view of a sinister wide world, a relentless afterlife, and the comforts of family. Those are just a couple I wanted. It's true. This was just a couple I wanted to read. It's kind of fun reading old reviews for old movies like this, seeing what people thought about it. But the crazy thing is, is that they're spot on. Like what they're saying is just what makes the movie so captivating. Yeah. Like it just feels real. So the movie's been released various times over the years. It's been on vhs, it was released on Laser disc and D V D. There was a director's cut eventually released in 1998 with an extended four minutes Nice. Yep. and then in 2005 there was a other director's cut that was released that featured, uh, A bunch of bonus materials worth watching, including 36 minutes of deleted footage and commentary from the director. Great stuff man. I didn't think I needed to buy the updated, uh, dvd, but I think I have to now. You should. I, I own, I honestly, I own the dvd. I don't know which one I own. I don't own the Blueray though. I should buy the Blueray. There is a blueray edition of the film that features both the original 113 minute theatrical cut and the never before seen extended cut, which runs 127 minutes. Weird. I'm gonna have to find that. I do not own that one. I wonder which one. Yeah, cuz I think we, the movie is on Amazon and I believe the one on Amazon is the 127 minute cut. Okay. So I think that's the one we watched. Well then we're gonna have to go back and see what the original was. Cuz I feel like when watching it, it's like it's not missing anything. Yeah, I'm gonna, It's done everything it needs. Hmm. I should have did a little bit more research on that, Billy, before we started this podcast. I just enjoyed the movie so much. Regardless. Regardless of what cut you're going to watch, you're going to enjoy this film. Absolutely. Billy? Yes sir. Quote. Ah, I think my, because there's a lot of quotable stuff in here. There is. Um, there is, but I think my favorite is cuz I laugh so hard every time is they're all sitting down for dinner and Gino asks, Where's grandpa? Or where's Papa Pops said, Where's Pops? Yeah, where's pops? And uh, their grandma goes, He's in the bathroom drowning himself cuz I hit his cigarettes and they cut to it and he's in shoulder, like crossed over the bathtub with his head all the way in the bathtub drowning himself cuz he didn't have cigarettes. And I was just like, the whole scene is cut so well and is so funny. I just think it's great. Is so depressed he couldn't have his cigarettes. He's drowning himself. That is a great quote. That one definitely always makes me laugh. What about you bud? Is there something you Like? I just wanna talk it like, instead of a quote for me, I just want to talk about a couple things that kind of just made me chuckle a little bit. Like, okay. I love how Frankie punches his friend in the face and acts like it's just like a normal thing and like walks away from it. Like, Yeah, I just did that. Right. And his buddy doesn't defend him cuz he is like, Yeah, he is being a jerk. Yeah, exactly. You know, mean, what are you gonna. I also wanna talk real quick about the kid's near death experience cuz when he is choked out, he enters into that realm of craziness like that. Yeah. Like it's super trippy, but it scared me to death because it was like, you think this poor kid was going to go to hell the way Yeah. The way it came out. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty, He the worst time of his life, it was pretty wild Right. And I'm sure like that would scare him for life with ever dying Right? Like thinking about death and what he went through. Like, I would never wanna die if I would've experienced death like that. Well, yeah. But I think that also helps with his adventure later is because I. When he died, all he wanted to see was his mom. You're right. And bizarre, but not in the way that he wanted to. Yeah, you're right. You know? So I think that kind of inspired him to, to help Melissa do her thing. you're right. So your. Is the one that I would've picked Billy. Oh no, I'm sorry. But, I did have a backup one and it's just a cute and charming quote cuz Frankie gets up in the middle of class and he tells this horror story. Right? Right. And it freaks everybody out. The teachers freaked out. it's just this great little story to kind of get the, lets the audience get to know Frankie, this character, right? Mm-hmm. And when he is done, he sits down next to this adorable little girl and she looks at him and she says, I wish I was as weird as you Yep. And it just, and it's just such an adorable little scene. And, and it's like, it's kind of like, almost like the lightest part of the movie before. The shit hits the fan. Right. And then he is like, Does he say thank you or does he just give her that smile? I think it's just a smile. I think he just gives her that, that grin. Yep. But anyway, yeah, it's, I'll do like that part of the movie, just no one really bashes him on him, except for his friends. They're just like, Ah. But nobody else, like, everybody seems to love it. His friends are friends. Right. But they also bully him, which is so interesting and weird to me that Yeah. They're the ones who lock him in the closet. Yeah. But they're his friends. Right? Right. They, they're not. Malicious or mean about it. It's like, Hey, this joke, like we're gonna play this joke on our friend. Right? But it's like one of the most horrific jokes you could ever do on someone, especially after what he goes through. dude. Seriously. And just the fact that he hangs out with them later in the movie, I was just like, No, they locked you in there and left you. Yeah. For the weekend, I know, dude. I just have to say, Lucas HOAs was amazing in this movie. The fear on his face, his facial expressions in this movie are just brilliant. The guy does not act enough whenever he is in a movie. I love seeing him whenever he pops up. Yes. I just wanna see him do more. I, Yeah, I'd like to, one, see him do more, but two, I also wouldn't mind seeing a sequel with him starring in it. Dude, without a doubt. I think that would be kind of cool. But if it never happens, I'm fine with the original, but I'm just throwing this out in the universe. It would be kind of cool to see Lucas host star in a sequel. Right? I don't know what story that would be with a tail, but just the thought. Just the thought. I'm just throwing that out there and, and I have no issues with that. Like get him and Jason pressing together and have a like me, uh, Mystery Inc type of thing going on. I would like it. That would be great. All right everybody. Thank you for listening. As Billy and I discussed this classic, wonderful, amazing film, Lady and White, this is such a great movie. If you have not seen it yet, please watch it. If you have seen it, watch it again. It is really a beautiful film and I have nothing. Wonderful, great things to say about it. Wonderful memories that have left me scarred for life. Yes, there, there are. It's hard to watch because you never wanna see a kid get hurt. You don't, But it has so many redeeming factors in it that it just makes it, it's, it's just such a worth it. It's just such a wonderful story that it tells. if you aren't already, please follow us on Facebook and Twitter where our call sign is at GT secret level. We actually have people chatting it up over there and throwing out suggestions to us. So this is good. We're throw throwing some things at the top of the list that we're gonna get to after we are done with the Halloween season. We've got a couple more horror episodes coming. we're excited to talk about some. Some cool stuff that we grew up with, that we enjoyed, that we still enjoy. And don't forget to leave a review. Hit those like buttons. Gives us five stars all over the place. Talk us up to your friends. Spread the word. That secret level is a great movie podcast. Yes. Keep going. And I enjoy it. I hope you guys enjoy it. I enjoy doing it. So if you guys are having a good time, we're having a good time making it. So yeah, please, please. We'll keep it up. We have a lot to talk about and we want you guys to enjoy it, so please do what you gotta do to help us out. Yeah, when we start making money, we'll actually try to get this thing out weekly. Oh, well that sounds like fun. That'd be awesome. I'd love to get this, this thing out weekly. All right, thank you again. Don't forget to visit geek tire.com for all of your entertainment, movie, tv, video game, comic book news, and until next time. Good journey. Good journey. I don't know what to say. That works. Okay.